J U V E N T U S

Thursday, April 4, 2013

Greek came from Egyptians? E-V13 is the son of E-M78

The E1b1b information provided by Ancestry.com
Just a short note to point out that Ancestry is still developing its haplogroup descriptions in recent times and they still contain some errors. (The information at the header of this group is from Ancestry.)

Cases of E1b1b (E-M215) men who are not also E1b1b1 (E-M35) are very rare and this as only ever been found in Ethiopia and Yemen. So this has nothing to do with Senegal. I think they have another E clade in mind, perhaps E1b1* or E1b1a?

Also when they mention sub groups of E1b1b1 who moved after the ice ages in the direction of the Mediterranean, I would say that this included not only E1b1b1a (E-M78), but also E1b1b1b (E-M81), and E1b1b1c (E-M123). Most E1b1b found in Europeans, Middle Easterners, Indians, North Africans etc will be in one of these 3 groups.

I am in E-M78, which is the most common case in Europeans outside of Spain and Portugal, where E-M81 is often more common.

E-M81 is not only common in Spain and Portugal, but also extremely common in men from the Maghreb countries: Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Western Sahara.

E-M123 is less common but has a fascinating distribution from Portugal to Oman. It seems to be strongly associated with people of Semitic speaking ancestry such as Arabs, Jews, and some parts of Ethiopia.

It should also be kept in mind that a major branch of E1b1b1 is found in Southern and Eastern Africa, E1b1b1g. So E1b1b1 should never be described as a purely northern clade.

I would also be interested to know their source for saying that 15-30% of Bulgarians are in E1b1b1a. This might be true, but there are few good studies of Bulgaria. I suspect they are making a reasonable guess. The highest levels known so far with significant studies are around Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia. The levels in Greece seem to be lower, although some smaller studies have shown big variations. The Ancestry page strangely ignores the fact that E1b1b is at least as common as it is in Greece in much of the former Yugoslavia, and also parts of Italy.

By the way, I've made some efforts to also ensure that the Wikipedia articles on these subjects are relatively up to date. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1b1b

Cheers
Andrew
Comments

Ramon Elias Cordero Roman Sep 29, 09

Andrew,

Thanks for pointing that out. The information at the header is actually a short snippet of the full report I recieved from Ancestry.com

I also posted a PDF file of the full report here. Can you please take a quick minute out of your time to look at it and comment? I would be interested in seeing if there'a anything else about their results that seems a little out of date.

It's located in the files section of the group.You should also see a comment box right underneath the file.

Thanks,

--Ramon

steve goode Sep 29, 09

Hello, just signed into the group...i took the 37 marker test for my Y for the " Goode surname " genaology study and ended up in the E1b1b group and because i match other's with a deeper clade test than mine they sometime add an "a" on the end....FT-DNA says i still need to take the deep clade test to get deeper into my Haplo and type, but i am E-M35 thus far.....Anyway, my family came to the America's early around 1652 from England...I've been told and read too that because my Haplo came from England is because the Roman Army signed up a bunch of people from the Balkin's for the occupation in Brittan.....Am learning more all the time and I'm hoping there's some people in this group with some good knowladge to help further inform me....

steve.....

John Millward Sep 29, 09

Hello Steve,

I too was fascinated to learn that our haplogroup may have arrived in Britain as Balkan auxiliaries with the Roman Army. There is also a new theory, developed by Sheffield University, that the haplogroup arrived in North Wales with Bronze Age copper miners from either the Balkans or Southern Spain. I've been trying to get hold of the report of their research but so far without success. I think their study only looked at North Wales, but if Bronze Age miners came to Wales for copper surely they also came to other parts of Britain for lead and tin. (Bronze is copper and tin isn't it?) I would prefer to have arrived in the Bronze Age so that I can't be accused of being a Roman newcomer, or even, Heaven forbid, an Anglo-Saxon! Laughing

Andrew Lancaster Sep 29, 09

Hi Steve

One great way to get a feeling for what "type" of E-M35 you have, and also to keep up to date with the latest news, is to make sure you also pass your results on to the E-M35 project. I think there are about 1400 people in the database so we can all use it to make serious estimates about where we all sit in the family tree.

Regards

Andrew

steve goode Sep 29, 09
Andrew, if you're referring to FT-DNA E-M35 study I'm in that as well as my family surname project...In the next few days after I figure out to use this site maybe I could load some of my data in it?

Andrew Lancaster Sep 29, 09

No problem!

1. Map. I'll be cheeky. It is possible this was copied off my much more complicated and ugly map that I did for Wikipedia! It is not bad, but if you are our clade's new repesentative to Ancestry you could suggest that there is absolutely no reason to have left a gap between Southern Africa and northeast Africa.

2. "The early farmers". I think this is not a bad term but it should be noted for the people interested that there are doubts and complications about this. It is very likely that E1b1b1a2 (E-V13 was involved in either the introduction or early spreading of farming technology within the Balkans and possibly Italy. However it's modern day spread outside that area may be much more recent, even Roman or even post Roman. And it has been argued that E1b1b1a was in Europe before farming got there and caught the wave later.

3. This sentence might mislead: "Many of the Early Farmers migrated from eastern Africa 25,000 years ago, finally settling in northern Africa, the Near East, and in Europe (particularly around the Mediterranean)." The time when E1b1b1 arrived in the places may have been very much later. I'd say it closer to 10,000 than 25,000 years ago.

4. There is a slight implication that E1b1b1a (E-M78) might be more common in Spain than E1b1bb (E-M81). Not necessarily true. Also note that much of Iberian E1b1b1a is NOT the typical European E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) but often types more typical of northern Africa.

5. An example of a common wording error which leads to lots of misunderstandings: "And 20% of the Jews living in Eastern
Europe can also trace their ancestry back to the Early Farmers." All Europeans and Jews have E1b1b ancestors. The word missing is "male line" or "patrilineal" (before "ancestry").

Hope this helps! Questions welcomed!

(If I may say so I have a slight preference for posting on the existing E-M35 forum, so that we get maximum discussion. It is hard to watch many discussion groups all the time.)

Andrew

steve goode Sep 29, 09

John, Wales is supposedly where my family came from when they left Brittan but I'm not sure so I say England....Do you have an Ethnic appearance? This is what started me in this quest for knowledge because I've mostly been asked if I were Native American, never have found any proof of that...Next is Italian and even sometimes Asian when younger there are no Italian or any other names on either side of my Family, just English, Irish and German and my Moms Haplo is T2....So why, why, why? The Administrator of the E-M35 study says it's because of the E1b1b DNA but I'm thinking this was 2000 + years ago and he said even from so long ago...Undecided

Karen Urick Sep 29, 09

Is everyone in here descended from Britian?

Karen Urick Sep 29, 09

My earliest ancestors are from Pommern, Prussia--my male ancestors--1700s. Don't laugh, it is the farthest back I can get without an ouiji board.

SMITH Sep 29, 09

what does the bible say about the E1b1b haplogroup? Anything? I mean i hear alot about roman soldiers, those guys are in the bible does that mean when we read about roman soldiers in the bible that those are our relatives?

Paul Hosse Sep 29, 09

I am an E1b1b1a2. I have a number of Ashkenazi-Levite and Sephardic-Levite markers as well. How common is that? Also, when people mention Macedonia, are they referring to Greek Macedonia or to the Slavic country of Macedonia (also known as FYRM)? BTW, although I've had the 37 marker test done, I have almost no matches (three to be exact. One from Holland; one from Poland: and a cousin). As one researcher told me, "it's like almost your entire line was erased". It appears my ancestors came from Romainia, to Bohemia, to Poland/Russia, to Holland, and finally to England aroud the 1600's. Thoughts?

SMITH Sep 29, 09

I dont think its as easy as that mr. hosse.

I do not think that your E-V13 came from Poland to Holland. its probably the other way around. what makes you think it came from Romania?

what Levite and Ashkenazi and Sephardic markers are you talking about? specific single DYS locations, or Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs). In the E haplogroup most of the men that are present among the Jewish Populations are in the E1b1b1c1 haplogroup or E-M123 and certain very respectable researches believe they are a result of assimilation with the Amorites of Canaan.

E-V13 in Europe if associated with Israelites is most likely a Convert to the faith of Judaism.

The haplogroup that is most common among the Cohen family thats the priestly line of the Israelites is in the J haplogroup.

Also the Sharifs or the descendants of Mohammeds paternal cousin are in the J haplogroup.

Using the bible the places that are associated with the descendants of Ham are the same exact places that E haplogroup is found.

others have even used mythological genealogy to see if that holds any truth to it.

The deal is this.

E1b1b1a2 is V13.

V13 descends from E-M78

99% of Anthrogenealogists will tell you that E-M78 is the Y-DNA haplogroup of the Ancient Egyptians.

since E-V13 is the son of E-M78 that means that our ancient Balkan Ancestors are settlers from Egypt.

What route did they take? was is through the middle east or was it by way of boat across the medditerrenean sea is the topic for many people discusin the E-M78 V13 haplogroup.

I have seen it reffered to Caphtor and Casluhim sons of Mizraim. Mizraim in the bible is the father of all Egyptians.

I have seen it reffered to Pelop (father of peloponese) a descendant of Zeus and Zeus is sometimes reffered to as Mizraim.

I have seen it reffered to as Philistines and Philistines come from Caphtor.

It is most dense among the Peloponnese Greeks and Albanians and Kosovar Albanians. (the macedonian percentage is mostly of Albanian Speakers not Macedonians)

I have seen it put this way. Albanians are believed to be Illyrians, Illyrians are Pelasgian and Pelasgians are Philistines.

Also the Dardanians are reffered to as a people in ancient Kosova some people say that these Dardanians are the Allies of the Hittites and the Hittites are sons of Canaan.

Hamathites have been said to show up as the Emathians in the Balkans. Hamathites ares sons of Canaan.

Almost everything archeological and biblically historical can suggest that the E haplogroup descends from a Hamatic Tribe.

moshe Sep 29, 09

didn't I read that V-13 is associated with the Samaritan priestly class still in Israel?

Isabella Buys Sep 29, 09

My patrilineal line is E1b1b1*-C ( E-M35), the Jewish subcluster. My father was tested at Ancestry as E1b1b1. We are now waiting for a 23&me yDNA test to see if we have some new SNP's to report.

Are there any other Birnbaum's out here?

SMITH Sep 29, 09

He is M78 and was not tested for Downstream SNPs. that would be in the file I uploaded to this site called Samaritans.

there is a couple other studies that include the Surname Cohen that does have more than a few V13s.

Paul Hosse Sep 30, 09

Thank you for comments. We're pretty sure they came from Poland to Holland and finally to England, not the other way around. While I don't know about the bibical "Ham" business, I do suspect they were Greek and at some point converted (mostly likely during the Classical Period). I do know the Romans used a lot of reserves troops from conquered countires, whihc included the Germans, Spainards, Celts, Dacians, Thracians, and of course, the Greeks. I know too that there were always several cohorts of Macedonains stationed in the Judean north along the Galilee. But then again, who knows? Thanks again for the comments.

Paul Hosse Sep 30, 09

I forget to answer your other question. Romania shows up on ROA.

John Millward Oct 6, 09

Hello Steve,

Sorry to be late getting back to you but I am finding this website a little difficult to navigate. Do I have an ethnic appearance? I don't think so, except I look typically English (whatever that means). Have a look at my photo; I am tall, slim, fair skinned and green/hazel eyed. I was brown haired but I now have more skin than hair! I do rather like the idea that my haplogroup is "mediterranean" though; I love mediterranean food and culture. The Welsh are supposed to be rather swarthy with brown eyes. The females are especially beautiful. (So they say!)

SMITH Oct 6, 09

No

SMITH Oct 6, 09

I tried the ouiji board it didnt work! but i aint gonna play with it again.

http://groups.ancestry.com/group/74372455/discussions/78685776

Languages of pre-Indo-european europe

Oghurkhan

02-13-2012, 04:54 PM

we can discuse about this. I've a proposition based on phenotypical, genetic and linguistic proves (during neolithic times): The Danubian culture bearers spoke Semitic languages, the Minoan and Tyrhenian peoples spoke languages distant related to north-caucasian languages and came originally from Anatolia (google Sea peoples), while the west of Europe was inhabited by Vasconic speakers. The north-east was inhabited by proto-Uralics, and the steppes of Ukraine and Russia where inhabited by proto-IE.

I want to hear your opinion about this pre-IE neolithic model.

Pyramidologist

02-13-2012, 05:20 PM

Here is a list of Pre-IE's -

Pelasgians and Lemnians (Greece and the Aegean)
Eteocretans (Crete)
Eteocypriots (Cyprus)
Elymians and Sicani (Sicily)
Basques, Tartessians and Iberians (Western Europe)
Picts (Britain)
Etruscans and Camunni (Italy)
Rhaetians (Alpine Region)
Lapps (Scandinavia)

Some of their territories overlapped. Another pre-Indo-European people were the Ligures, who the ancient Latin author Avienus claims once inhabited up to the coasts of Britain, before being displaced and pushed south by the later arriving Indo-Europeans.

What languages did they speak?

I believe Pictish is of Afro-Asiatic (Berber) roots.

Professor Rhys (The Welsh People, 1902, p. 618) claimed to have found a Hamitic (Berber) element: ''The linguistic complement of the anthropological evidence, and the strongest corroboration of the theory of the kinship of the early inhabitants of Britain to the North African white race''.

curupira

02-13-2012, 05:54 PM

I would guess it is fair to say many.

billErobreren

02-13-2012, 06:00 PM

Well there's the Basque, How about them? :dunno:

Oghurkhan

02-13-2012, 06:05 PM

It think you're right. I think we can place the known ethnic names into cathegories:
Pelasgians and Lemnians (Greece and the Aegean): Tyrhenian
Eteocretans (Crete): Semitic?
Eteocypriots (Cyprus): Semitic or Tyrhenian
Elymians and Sicani (Sicily): Tyrhenian
Basques, Tartessians and Iberians (Western Europe): Vasconic
Picts (Britain): Vasconic with Afro-Asiatic elite (superstratum)
Etruscans and Camunni (Italy): Tyrhenian
Rhaetians (Alpine Region): Tyrhenian
Lapps (Scandinavia): unknown mesolithic extraction
Ligures: Vasconic

But I personally think it might be more usefull to look at the archeological horizons:
Danubian horizon (from Anatolia stretching from Balkans, Hungary, west Ukraine, south-middle Germany, south Netherlands): Afro-Asiatic (probably close to Semitic). They can be associated with Danubian, Dinarid and Pontid races and y-dna E1b1b and J
Cardium Ware (from Levant, Balkans, Italy, Sardinia, east Iberia and south-east France): Tyrhenian. They can be associated with Dinarid, and Atlantid, Adriatid and y-dna J and E1b1b
Megalithic civilizations (Sardinia, Corsica, Iberia, France, Belgium, British isles): Vasconic common population with Afro-Asiatic (probalby close to Berber) elite (from Sea peoples). Associated types for Vasconic speakers: Dinarid, Atlantid, Alpinid. y-dna R1b.
Sea peoples (associated with megalithic civilizations as well with Creta, Cyprus, Anatolia): Afro-Asiatic (probably Berber related). Associated types: Atlantid, Dinarid. y-dna J and E1b1b.
I guess that north Germany and Scandinavia (except Finland) in the neolithic times until the Funnel Beaker and Corded ware cultures remained mesolithic. Maybe they were related to the substrate language in Lappish.
The Comb-Cermamic horizon (Finland, Baltic to Urals): still undifferentiated Uralic speakers. In some regions this Uralic group was only the elite of a pre-existing mesolithic group (example: Lapponic). Associated types are Corded Nordic, Uralid and east-Batlid-Ladogans. y-dna N (interestingly is more typical to mongoloid peoples, but the proto-Uralics where clearly Europids).
The Kurgan horizon (from Don to Volga, later also N. Germany, Carpathians and Balkans and still later whole Europe): proto-IE. Associated types: Corded Nordic, Danabian, Pontid. y-dna R1a.

Pyramidologist

02-13-2012, 07:00 PM

Redar14

02-13-2012, 07:05 PM

In ancient Eastern Europe dominated Finno- Ugrian languages.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

Fiolet colour mean range of Finno-Ugrian "Pit–Comb" Ware culture.

Treffie

02-13-2012, 09:41 PM

I believe Pictish is of Afro-Asiatic (Berber) roots.

Professor Rhys (The Welsh People, 1902, p. 618) claimed to have found a Hamitic (Berber) element: ''The linguistic complement of the anthropological evidence, and the strongest corroboration of the theory of the kinship of the early inhabitants of Britain to the North African white race''.

Tentative connection at best IMO

PBachman

02-15-2012, 04:53 AM

What languages did they speak?

I believe Pictish is of Afro-Asiatic (Berber) roots.

Where is the evidence? Can you cite it please?

rashka

02-15-2012, 05:24 AM

I believe Pictish is of Afro-Asiatic (Berber) roots.

This is very possible and would most likely explain why mysterious Albanian is put all by its lonesome on one limb on the IE language tree.

PBachman

02-15-2012, 05:29 AM

This is very possible and would most likely explain why mysterious Albanian is put all by its lonesome on one limb on the IE language tree.

IMHO it is very unlikely as you would have more linguistic evidence between the areas in between. And why Albanian? Pictish never made it that far.

Arch Hades

03-12-2012, 03:50 AM

I think it's possible the Pelasgians had an Indo-European (but non Hellenic) tongue.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-41650.html

Wednesday, April 3, 2013

Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13

Ancient Greeks : Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).
Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E too.
Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Ukrainian steppes. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1a. So were the Macedonians and the Thracians (hence the higher density of R1a in northern Greece).Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.
Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E and J2) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

By definition, the Pelasgians are the autochthonous, native inhabitants of Mesolithic Greece. They did not speak Greek, but their language may have contributed to a few loan words in ancient Greek. Modern Greece is a melting pot. The Pelasgians were first there probably haplogroup I2, then came early farmers from the Near East (E1b1b and J2), herders from the Caucasus and Anatolia (G2), then the Mycenaeans (I would think R1a), the Dorians (possibly R1b) and others. Ancient Greek language and religion is surely an admixture of all this, although the Indo-European component is stronger than the rest. I suppose that this is because the Mycenaeans and Dorians were the last invaders, whose language and culture eventually stuck, after some adaptation to local idiosyncrasies.

http://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com/2011/02/06/eupedia-maciamo-y-dna-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations/